Check Your Baggage, Please
Image by Clipart.com
If you had to sum up your worst date ever in one sentence, what would it be?
Here’s mine: I made a girl cry on the first date.
How does one accomplish this exhilarating feat, you ask? Let me tells ya….
My first date with “Monica” was actually one of the most fun dates I’d ever been on (well, up to the point where I made her cry). We had met through a mutual friend, and when I called her a few days later, we chatted for almost an hour before we decided that we might as well go out to dinner. After dinner, we headed to a local bar, where we laughed over cocktails for several more hours. I felt like I could talk to her all night, and she seemed to feel the same way.
Towards the end of the evening, she put her arm around me, furrowed her eyebrows pensively, then asked, “do you wanna go see a movie or something?”
Seeing as how it was 11:30 PM on a Tuesday night, I responded that it was probably too late to see a movie, but we could watch a DVD back at my place. She liked the idea, so we headed out.
Once we got in my car, though, she had a change of heart.
“You know what? It’s getting kind of late. Maybe you should just take me home.”
“Aw, really?”
Not wanting to reveal the disappointment in my voice, I instead launched into “smart-ass mode.” This is where I cleverly and charmingly rebutted every reason she had for calling it a night. (Okay, fine. In my mind, at least, I was being clever and charming.)
“Ya know, I have to be at work before you even have to be awake tomorrow morning.”
“Oh, come on. You’re sounding like a chick. I thought you said you weren’t the ‘chickish’ type.”
“Never underestimate the power of caffeine!”
As we bantered back and forth, she was smiling the entire time. So, she seemed to be enjoying herself. Besides, I figured she’d notice that I was driving back to her place, not mine. And so, I continued the playful—or so I thought—ribbing.
All of a sudden, she burst into tears.
“Why does it always end up like this? Why can’t a guy just drop me off and kiss me and say goodnight? If we go back to your place, you know we’re not gonna watch the movie. We’re gonna be messing around all night, and before we know it, it’ll be six o’clock in the morning, I won’t have gotten any sleep, and I’ll be completely useless at work!”
Whoa. This was definitely not the reaction I was hoping my charm would elicit. Regroup! Regroup!
Inside my mental huddle, I went through a quick checklist:
Did I have fun tonight? Absolutely.
Do I want to continue hanging out with her? Certainly.
Am I hoping to “get some”? Umm… okay, sure. But, honestly, I only suggested coming back to my place because she wanted to see a movie at 11:30 PM on a weeknight.
Okay, so did I come on too strong? Hmm. I don’t think so. Dude, what the hell just happened?!?
Still bewildered, I unleashed a torrent of backpedaling, dousing every accusation she made with some variety of, “I’m sorry, that’s not what I meant.”
That seemed to calm her down somewhat. Between sobs, she eventually admitted that she always seemed to date guys who would hook up with her and never call again.
Great. I guess this means I have to be her friend tonight.
I did my best to convince Monica that I actually liked her and just didn’t want the night to end. Finally, she stopped crying. At that moment, though, a new thought spring into my head.
Hey, wait a minute! Was it fair of her to assume that I was just trying to get laid?
My sympathy erupted into frustration. And boy, did I give her several pieces of my mind.
“Fine! I get that you thought I was just trying to hook up with you. And… okay, maybe I did want to. But, I only suggested coming back to my place because YOU wanted to see a movie at 11:30 on a weeknight. You had NO right to judge me the way you did just because you’ve dated a bunch of a-holes in the past!”
Somewhat to my surprise, she understood and actually apologized, admitting that she really liked me, too, and maybe that’s why she got so emotional. By this time, we’d been parked in her driveway for half an hour, so I gave her a peck on the cheek and dropped her off. She thanked me and said she’d call me.
Well, she did call, and we did talk on the phone a few times after that. But we never went out again. I guess we both just lost interest. I mean, how could we ever top the epic fail that was our first date?
Since then, I’ve learned to laugh about that night. After all, how many people can claim that they made someone cry on the first date? If nothing else, it was a lesson on how the emotional baggage we carry can sabotage new relationships. I also learned to save the smart-assery (smart-assity? smart-assinine?) for… well, maybe the second date.
Still, it wasn’t until a year later that what should have been the lesson of the night struck me. Yes, Monica assumed that I just wanted to sleep with her. And yes, it was a horrible misunderstanding. But wait….
She accepted at first!
So what happened between the time we left the bar and the time we got in my car that made her change her mind? That’s where I messed up!
So what was it? I never found out. I was too wrapped up in the fact that I made a girl cry on the first date.
Themocracy
I’m tagging y’all because you’ve actually shown a penchant for reading my dating articles. Feel free to provide comments if you’d like. Some of you may have heard this story before.
By the way… Rich, *you’re* the mutual friend I met this girl through.
this is why i prefer meaningless sex with girls who don’t want much to do with me between 6am and 2am.
Wow! That is one memorable date! Funny story. Someday, I’ll have to tell you about the guy who blindfolded me while I was driving down I 5. Crazy MF!
um. “monica” sounds a wee bit PUNCHY. freakin seriously…
Yo homeboy, I think your mistake was trying to logically convince her to come back to your place when she gave her reasons. You started making her feel like a slut. You should have gone the other way. And some girls cry over anything, don’t take it personally.
Ummmm….. worst date. Guy I wasn’t really interested in because I was way out of his league (and I don’t think of myself as that great so you can image what this guy was like) but we decided to meet at a bar. I had to buy my own drink and the he tried to kiss me. I wasn’t having this but the conversation was good. So….decided to meet up for sushi to see if the first date was a fluke. He made me pay for half of the meal and then tried to kiss me again. What what that all about? Well, never went out with him again. I am not one to demand a guys pays every time but he invited me out… so he pays. Annoying but an experience.
Oh I have so many bad date stories in my arsenal…let me dig here… Ok, here’s one.
I used to live in NYC and was there to start a dot com so it was rare that I ever had time to date. But as luck would have it, I met a great guy at a networking party and he promptly asked me out.
We had an amazing dinner and the conversation and laughter was flowing. We were doing some high-impact flirting.
The dinner goes so smoothly that we go to a bar and have some after-dinner drinks. He proceeds to tell me that he is 39 and really looking to settle down. He then asked me how old I was – and at the time I had just turned 37.
Suddenly all expression left his face. He shook his head disappointingly.
“Aw shit,” he said. “I really want about 5 kids – and I thought you were 25 – I’m so disappointed.”
I looked at him, thanked him for dinner- then said (very calmly I might add), “Well that’s ashame. I’m sure if you keep looking you will someday find the uterus of your dreams – don’t give up.”
Oh I was supposed to use one sentence.
How about:
Date disses my uterus.
oh I could contribute stories of short guys driving big trucks (in efforts to compensate for things), or hearing about piercings in an effort to entice me.. come on, I lived in military city for almost 8 years – I have plenty of bad date stories.
About the only valuable thing I really learned from dates gone bad, was to keep their number in my phone on the rare chance they call me again and I need to recognize their phone number (to ignore it). Easily saved under ‘don’t answer’.
The date that casually annouced at the end of dinner that he was a Klan member, then offered to walk me home….
good thing you never made me cry!! hah!
nice Dennis. another notch on your belt of girls you made cry. hahaha jk. yes i love reading stories on failed romances. keep me in the loop! hahaha jkkkkkkk
i would say my worst date was with this dude that i didn’t rememer meeting (buzzed). we went to BJs, split a pizza, and when the bill came out of politeness i offered my half and he actually took my cash and paid for the whole tab on his credit card. effing ass. that was the last and first time i went out with him. hell i shouldn’t even called it a date becuz i paid for my self.
Haha, wow. Thanks for the great stories, everyone. Stay tuned for more of my outrageous dating stories in the coming weeks… like the girl who wanted me to romance her while she continued sleeping with another guy for “purely physical reasons”… or the girl who dumped me through a text message (take THAT, Carrie Bradshaw and your post-it)… or the girl who….
hey you can’t beat my ex calling me a c**t and breaking up via text while I was at work…
Can I quote you Meg?
Come on, you can’t possibly think a well established relationship will result from fuck buddies, or do you?
I actually was accused by the guy of what Meg said…
Whatever happened to getting to know one another before “hooking up” – ie getting physical? I care most what’s between his ears, not between his legs. It frustrates me when a guy wants to romance me before he even knows me. Even if he’s doing it in a sweet, not sexual way, it just seems FAKE. My worst dates are the ones where I wanted to actually get to know the guy and all he wants is to get to second base.
Worst date(s) – I have a tie.
1. Guy (first date) gets way too drunk & asks me to drive his car back to my place to sober up.
2. Guy (dating awhile) asks me out for my birthday 2 weeks in advance, but shows up without a plan or a clue as to how to make someone feel special on their birthday.
And people wonder why I have a tendency to take charge of situations often.
BTW, Dennis – We all tend to interpret situations by drawing on past experience (good or bad). It can save us from making the same mistakes over and over, or it can create a big, tangled mess of misunderstandings. Sounds like your girl identified the similarity to her past experience while in the car, and then attempted to make a change to avoid the past outcome. The problem was that she made an incorrect association (though to be fair, how could she know this at the time?) and you ended up with the aforementioned tangled mess of misunderstandings.
I happen to be in a very similar boat right now. *sigh*
All I have to say is “Wow…” I actually agree a little bit with everyone on this posting. I do hope you change the names of the people in your stories to protect the innocent (or the guilty, whichever the case may be).
Of course, I think it might also depend on how long you’ve known the person before you started dating. So when do you want to hear about the girls best/worst dumping and rejection of boys. I’ve got some fun experiences with that.
Wait wait wait wait wait…on the whole sleeping together too soon, I have heard of (know of) people who have gotten married to someone they slept with right away, but why do people reject the notion (and this is even more strongly supported if you already sort of know the person first) that it is actually possible to really and truly like someone right off the bat? Maybe not love a t first sight, but hasn’t anyone ever met someone and thought “Wow!” this person could be the one…and then you hook up and it’s great, Unfortunately, more women than men, in my opinion, feel that way, me, the eternal optimist, in particular.
Sometimes when a girl sleeps with a guy on the first date, she really does just dig him that much and she’s letting her emotions (and chemistry) run the show. No thinking or logic involved. That simple. Just saying…
yes, that was exactly what I was trying to say!
Unfortunately, it never seems to work out in my favor 
*sigh* I hear ya, sister. Too bad, isn’t it? I think the trouble is that people (including said girl) tend to try to throw all their logic and rationalizations at it afterward, and they muck it all up.
I’ve never had a bad date. Probably because I don’t date that much. I did have a guy ask me out on a Wednesday for Saturday and then never heard from him again. And I did dump a guy by text message. Twice. But it was in Macedonia, rules are different there.
I don’t trust most guys I hook up with on a first date. It doesn’t matter how awesome I think the guy is, I always wonder if he’s just with me because I’m that good in bed.
While guys might not EXPECT to be rejected, I am pretty sure, guys don’t MIND being rejected (as far as a girl not having sex with you) on the first date.
Are you telling me that you’ve never jumped too fast into a relationship? I have had guys tell me that they don’t trust women who jump too fast into a physical relationship. They think she’s after something. My response to this was that it was a completely absurd notion that women are after anything other than sex, because those women who do use sex to manipulate guys usually withhold sex as a means of getting what they want, not the other way around. I have also heard this notion WAY too often lately that men believe that women use sex to get what they want. Doesn’t it occur to guys that the SEX is what we want? Why do men think they hold a monopoly on sexual desire? Sex is not something that women have that guys want, it’s such a weird notion to me. With one exception, if I sleep with a guy before I bother to get to know him, I usually don’t respect him that much. I suspect he’s a total jerk, so I don’t feel bad about it.
[...] down is that I can be a bit of a smart-ass. I put this down because… well, I’ve been known to make girls cry on the first date, so I feel that sufficient warning must be granted to all my potential [...]
Dude, you dont take a girl back to his place at 11:30pm on a worknight on a FIRST DATE. Sorry man.
It sounds like Monica has good boundaries (and is working on inacting them and not perfect at it yet). I would try next time by politely declining, taking her home, and then calling/emailing her the next day to let her know I enjoyed the evening and would want to go out again sometime.
The guy is supposed to lead and you lead by doing the right thing. (and the right thing is not bringing ANY girl back to your place on a FIRST date).
Monica didnt get back to you likely because you talked to her like this:
“Fine! I get that you thought I was just trying to hook up with you. And… okay, maybe I did want to. But, I only suggested coming back to my place because YOU wanted to see a movie at 11:30 on a weeknight. You had NO right to judge me the way you did just because you’ve dated a bunch of a-holes in the past!”
No girl on a FIRST date EVER should be talked to like that. It sounds to me like you were disappointed you had no chance to “score” and then took it out on her.
Maybe it wouldve been better to say something like, “You sound really frustrated and Im really sorry you’ve run into guys like this in the past. Let me take you back to your place and we can sit and talk another time.”
I would say that the fact you suggested going back to your place at 11:30pm on a worknight to watch a movie already establishes your motives (true or not) in her mind. That’s life. Similar to how you wouldnt date a girl who looks good on paper without seeing her first. This isnt a question of fairness as we all want what we want, but more a matter of treating each other with dignity because we are all human.
That’s a lot of absolutes you like to speak in. I’d caution you against that, but you sound like a smart guy. I’m sure you’ll learn it on your own eventually.
Hi Dennis, what absolutes are you speaking of?
M
I won’t even get into the patently false statements and assumptions you made.
Hi Dennis,
Thanks for responding. Id like to address the three quotes you mentioned.
- I didnt know it was a good idea for a guy and girl to go back to the guys place on a first date. We must have female friends with different opinions.
- Im not sure what you object to here. Can you elaborate please?
- I didnt know it was okay to speak so strongly to a girl on a first date who decides to change her mind regarding the course of where she wishes the night to go. I was under the impression that on a first date if my date wishes to leave my presence she has the right to. I was also under the impression that its not polite to give anyone I just met (Im assuming you didnt know this girl well before the first date with her) a “piece of my mind” unless they treat myself or another human being harmfully (either verbally or physically).
Im a pretty smart guy. Id like if you could please mention the false assumptions I made. I dont see them as clearly as you do.
Thanks,
M
Yup, we certainly do.
The statement is sexist and perpetuates gender stereotypes.
Pretty much everything you said after that is a patently false assumption of what happened that night.
What I find ironic is that you read a story about someone you know nothing about, make a thousand assumptions about the incident, then lecture the person on how they should or should not treat other people.
Are you smart enough to see your own hypocrisy here?
Hi Dennis,
Thanks again for your response.
You seem angry. Regarding quote 3, Im using the information I read in the article you wrote to understand the events that took place that evening. You said, “My sympathy erupted into frustration. And boy, did I give her several pieces of my mind.” Regardless of gender, I always thought it was impolite to talk to any human Ive recently met like this unless they were to inflict verbal or physical harm upon me or another human.
I didnt make a thousand assumptions. I might have made a few, but Id have to study what I wrote carefully to be really precise. However, I did make some conjectures which you are welcome to clarify.
Yes, I am smart enough that I usually spot hypocrisy when others do, including my own.
M
Nope. I think I hear a song here. It goes something like this:
Assumption conjunctionnnnn.
Well, it’s my version of the song.
Welp, then you did a pretty shitty job at it.
Just read the article again. Carefully. Most of the patently false assumptions you made have already been pre-refuted by the article.
Hi Dennis,
I read your article again, this time even more carefully than the first time I read it. I now think that it was wrong for Monica to apologize to you. She did nothing wrong. She changed her mind and she has the right to do that. In my opinion, I dont think it was right that you gave her a piece of your mind; I suppose that you really intimidated her.
Imagine if you were in her shoes. Here’s a girl who simply wants to go out on a date, have a nice time with a good guy, and then be dropped off at home with a soft peck on the cheek. Shes likely nervous on the date and is wondering about your intentions. She mentions about watching a movie later as she maybe desires to be sexual with you. Then, she realizes this likely isnt a good idea for her based on past mistakes she made and then changes her mind (which we are allowed to do). Next, you confront her in a teasing way about changing her mind (which shes likely heard before) and then breaks down because dating is hard and shes frustrated. She wants a different dating experience and isnt finding it and is thus frustrated. SO, shes confused (and allowed to be). Then, you give her a “piece of your mind.”
That poor girl.
What she needs is a good friend who can help her get straight what she wants in life and help her work on herself so that she can get it. She’s likely walking through a muddy field in life on her way to nice green pastures and she gets her foot stuck in a muddy hole now and then, gets confused, and then think something like “Oh gosh, it was wrong from me to think that I deserve or can obtain greener pastures.” Then, she takes two steps backwards. (and you giving her a piece of your mind doesnt help her.)
PS. your welcome do delete this posts if your perspective changes. No hard feelings.
Good luck,
M
Nah, why should I delete your posts? It’s nice to have the proof of your inability to read. What you can’t seem to get is that I didn’t give her a “piece of my mind” because I was disappointed. You keep jumping from 1) her changing her mind to 2) me giving her a piece of mine.
Read the story again. Pick up everything happened between 1 and 2.
Hi Dennis,
You said that you gave her a piece of your mind after your sympathy “erupted” to frustration.
It also looks like you lied to her…. You said..
“But, I only suggested coming back to my place because YOU wanted to see a movie at 11:30 on a weeknight.”
Earlier in the article you say…
“Am I hoping to “get some”? Umm… okay, sure”
This sounds duplicitous to me.
“Great. I guess this means I have to be her friend tonight.”
Best thing Ive read in this article. Go for that!
M
That’s called being honest with myself. It’s a good thing to do, and it doesn’t make someone duplicitous.
Incidentally, why are you so fixated on this? Why is it so necessary for you to lecture me on how I supposedly misbehaved? Is it to satisfy some innate issue with self-worth?
Maybe you should think about that before you keep doling out the misguided advice….
Hi Dennis,
I looked at the story again and I dont see where my false assumptions are. You said to “Read the story again. Pick up everything happened between 1 and 2.” I read this but am still not understanding where the assumptions are. Could you please explain more?
I chose to respond to your article because you asked a rhetorical question in the last paragraph implying you were/are still processing the event and since this is a blog which allows comments to me implies that you were asking for feedback to help you answer your rhetorical question. I was providing my feedback, though not directly to you, but for all guys who read this article.
M
“What you can’t seem to get is that I didn’t give her a “piece of my mind” because I was disappointed. You keep jumping from 1) her changing her mind to 2) me giving her a piece of mine.”
I do understand. You stated that you gave her a piece of your mind because your empathy erupted in frustration because you thought that she assumed you were just trying to get laid and you thought this was an unfair assumption. I only thought your disappointment was part of the event. (though you did say immediately after she told you she changed her mind about coming to your place the following “Not wanting to reveal the disappointment in my voice,”…).
From what you wrote, it sounds to me that she didnt completely think you were trying to get laid, but that it was somewhere in your thoughts and she felt uncomfortable by it. I would say she was likely right given that you said “Am I hoping to “get some”? Umm… okay, sure. But, honestly, I only suggested coming back to my place because she wanted to see a movie at 11:30 PM on a weeknight.”
To me, this reads like you were open to the possibility of fooling around with her though couched it _technically_ as “watching a movie.”
To me, what Monica wants is for a guy to be clear that he’s not looking to fool around on a first date.
M
Okay, sure. I was trying to be tactful about this, but since you keep pressing the issue, I’ll spell it out for you.
Here’s your problem: you pop onto a random blog, you have no idea who the people you’re interacting with are, you have no clue what actually happened, and then you actually have the audacity to dole out misguided advice.
Let’s take a look at your posts on this thread, why don’t we?
You say that I lost my cool because I was disappointed that I wasn’t going to get any.
WRONG. I lost my cool because she made an unreasonable judgment about me. That conversation had nothing to do with her changing her mind. As I noted in the article, we were already at her place by the time all this went down.
You say that she didn’t get back to me because I gave her a piece of my mind.
WRONG. As a matter of fact, she did, also as noted in the article. Read, dude, read.
You say that a guy should “lead.”
WRONG. It’s not 1950 anymore, and that attitude only reveals your chauvinism. Women want a guy who’s assertive and honest, not someone who’s going to “lead” them.
Three strikes, buddy. You’re outta there. Oh wait, here’s one more:
You say that I was wrong to give her a piece of my mind.
WRONG. Given the circumstances, we were way past the typical first-date posturing. At that point, what she needed was a swift kick in the ass for overreacting. And she appreciated it.
There’s quite a few more. But I hope you’re starting to realize how wrong you’ve been through this whole interaction.
For the record, I can admit when I’m wrong. I know how to reflect on my actions and figure out where I messed up. In this case, where I messed up was being an unrelenting smart-ass. Oh, but look at that? Of all the feedback that you tried to dish out, this little tidnit of insight was not amongst them.
So, you missed the one glaring piece of advice that would’ve been helpful. And, instead, you fixate on several other pieces of useless feedback. Great job, dude.
And now, I’m going to give you some free unsolicited advice, because you seem to fancy yourself quite the dating coach. But just this one time. I usually charge for this shit, so if you make me have to school you again, expect to get a bill from me.
I’ve checked out your blogs. I can tell that you’re a smart dude on other topics, but you’ve got a lot to learn when it comes to dating and relationships. Trust me, I have way more experience than you on this. I know how to treat women, I know how to interact with them.
From your advice, clearly you don’t.
Relationshisp aren’t about hard-and-fast rules. Relationshisp are about adaptability and flexibility. I think I read that on one of your own posts, ironically enough. Well, guess what? When you start going around dictating to people how they should or should not behave, when you start saying that “this” is the right way to go about it, and “that” is the wrong way, then you’re the one who’s WRONG. (That word starting to sound familiar to you?)
Because, believe me, you DON’T have all the answers. No one does. And when you get that through your head, when you lay off the blanket statements and absolutist advice, maybe you can start enjoying love and life for the mysterious journey that it is.
Finally, here are some tips on effectively coaching people:
1. Don’t offer unsolicited advice. Don’t.
2. Before you start leveling judgments, ask questions and clarify. Be sure you actually KNOW what happened before you start offering your feedback.
3. Offer useful and insightful feedback. In other words, give good advice.
Guess what, dude? You’ve done none of these.
So, why don’t you go back to the book that you’re reading and keep sharing your stories? There’s nothing wrong with that. But, lay off the attempts at coaching people on their dating, because you 1) have no clue what you’re talking about, and 2) have no clue how to effectively provide feedback to people.
But good luck, though. And if you really do want to learn something about dating and relationshisp… that’s what we’re here for.
Thanks for reading.
Hi Dennis,
I was actually trying to be nice with my inquisition. Id just like to engage in a discussion. You’ve really run this discussion into a corner and Im not sure what to say now.
Im happy if you disagree with my advice. I did ask you some questions and offered some conjectures and welcomed you to clarify them but you didnt really answer any of them until this post.
Thanks for your last response, and I disagree with much of what you wrote. Im not saying the events you experienced didn’t happen, but I dont believe your assessment of the situation is congruent with what you wrote. I think a different point of view would have better served you and Monica.
I dont think anyone deserves a “kick in the ass” (your words) on a first date. I think on a first date people should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger.
Thanks for your compliments about my blog. Im still working through this as I will be for the rest of my life.
M
Read your first comment again. How “nice” were you? How “inquisitive” were you?
It was all lecture. You left no room for “discussion.”
And if you thought you did… again, that’s just shitty coaching.
And there’s your kick in the ass.
Hi Dennis,
Im not sure how to quantify niceness and inquisitiveness. I thought it was pretty nice though (whatever that means I guess). I offered some conjectures and suggestions to you (via words such as ‘likely,’ ‘would try’, and ‘wouldve been better’).
I would say the strongest statement (in the sense that I imagine some people project it onto themselves personally) I said was “No girl on a FIRST date EVER should be talked to like that.” I suppose I could have been a little softer here. Apologies.
There was obviously was lots of room for discussion or we wouldn’t be here half a dozen posts later.
“It was all lecture. You left no room for “discussion.”
And if you thought you did… again, that’s just shitty coaching.”
This statement makes no sense to me.
“And there’s your kick in the ass.”
Sorry, Im not really into S&M.
M
And that’s probably why you shouldn’t be going around the internet, trying to tell people what to do.
Hi Dennis,
Im sorry to keeping asking this of you, but your last response doesn’t address my concern, can you please address my comments directly.
Also, I want to let you know that you dont have to read everything or enjoy everything that I post.
M
I’m not going to waste my time trying to teach you how to give feedback and engage in helpful discussion, as you claim you’ve been trying to do. Buy a book.
If you post something on my blog, you can bet I’m gonna read it.
Hi Dennis,
Yes, it seems very reasonable that you would want to read the comments on your blog articles, but you are free to ignore or not respond to any comments I write.
M
Just as you’re free to keep your erroneous opinions to yourself.
Hi Dennis,
I try, generally, to form my opinions from facts I observe (from experience, reading, and other people’s stories mostly). I believe my opinions here to be truthful.
M
Wrong again. Next.
Hi Dennis,
Thanks for your opinion.
M
Okay, I’ve got some time, so let’s do this. Here are all the false assumptions, misguided judgments, and just plain egregious errors you made:
Wrong. As we’ve discussed, this is not always the case. Besides, absolute statements are rarely correct.
Wrong. How would you even presume to know? You know nothing about her except for what I wrote.
Wrong. Chauvinist.
Wrong. She did get back to me, as mentioned in the article.
Wrong. Another absolutism. In any case, I know you think you’re being chivalrous, but you’re actually only revealing your own sexism. Women are not dainty objects to be tiptoed around and baby-talked to. It’s perfectly okay to assert your own needs and speak strong words to a woman, as long as you’re not being verbally abusive. I was not. None of my statements, harsh as they were, fall within the realm of verbal abuse.
Wrong. How presumptuous of you.
Wrong. I didn’t speak strongly to her because she changed her mind.
Wrong. Just puzzled by how dense you’re turning out to be.
Wrong. AGAIN, that’s not why I “gave her a piece of my mind.” I may have been a smart-ass, but she overreacted. In any case, she didn’t apologize for changing her mind. She apologized for overreacting.
Wrong. It actually did help here see why she was being irrational. She understood. Why can’t you?
And you have a right to be wrong.
Wanna keep going?
Hi Dennis,
Thanks for your detailed response. I disagree with much of what you wrote.
M
Not to jump into the middle of a wicked fight, but Micah I found the following paragraph to be quite presumptuous:
**Imagine if you were in her shoes. Here’s a girl who simply wants to go out on a date, have a nice time with a good guy, and then be dropped off at home with a soft peck on the cheek. Shes likely nervous on the date and is wondering about your intentions. She mentions about watching a movie later as she maybe desires to be sexual with you. Then, she realizes this likely isnt a good idea for her based on past mistakes she made and then changes her mind (which we are allowed to do). Next, you confront her in a teasing way about changing her mind (which shes likely heard before) and then breaks down because dating is hard and shes frustrated. She wants a different dating experience and isnt finding it and is thus frustrated. SO, shes confused (and allowed to be). Then, you give her a “piece of your mind.”**
How do you know what she wanted or was thinking? It’s extremely naive to think that all women are innocent, naive virgins with no motives or desires.
And since when are people on a FIRST date obligated or even expected to be a shoulder to cry on because of bad past relationship experiences? We’ve all got baggage, and if we were to dump it all out on the table on a first date, we’d never get to the second ones.
And by the way, “The guy is supposed to lead and you lead by doing the right thing.”
Are you kidding me? Maybe after he totes me around like a little trophy wife he can give me my monthly allowance to buy groceries and have my hair fixed every now and then. After all, I want to look good for my man, not myself!
Get a clue.
I really don’t like feeding a troll because it metabolizes attention and excretes shame and stupidity during their sad existence but I’ll make an exception:
Micah claims he forms his opinions by observing the facts. The FACT is that Micah should turn whatever stunted reading comprehension skills it may have on to its own posts and see what a chauvinistic moron it is.
Off with its head- this thing and its simplistic, moronic posts are examples of the weakest trolling I’ve seen in a while. Congrats, Micah- you fail at the Internetz!
FFG
@Micah: You are, of course, welcome to disagree with my statements. Nonetheless, most of these rebuttals had to do with my own thoughts and actions, as well as those of Monica’s. I find it laughable that you claim to know more about my thoughts and actions (and Monica’s, for that matter) than I myself do. Now THAT’s presumptious. But hey, it’s your right.
@FFG: The sad thing is, I don’t think Micah is a troll. I believe he genuinely believes what he writes. And that, to me, is just sad at this point.
If this Micah thing isn’t a troll I really hope its sterile and doesn’t have access to impressionable young minds.
FFG
@Kat Fenn
Hi Kat. I realized when I read your response that something I originally wrote isnt clear. When I said, “The guy is supposed to lead and you lead by doing the right thing,” what I really meant to say is that I think its a bad idea for guys to go into a date having unclear physical boundaries in that they act cordial but have in the back of their mind that if they happen to “get lucky” than great. I understand that we’re built to be sexual but I think its more productive to set the date up in such a way that it doesnt make sense for a strong physical component to enter. This way, both people can focus on getting to know each other in a way I find is really productive.
“Are you kidding me? Maybe after he totes me around like a little trophy wife he can give me my monthly allowance to buy groceries and have my hair fixed every now and then. After all, I want to look good for my man, not myself!”
haha.. I couldn’t agree with you more Kat! I want an equal, not a trophy wife. I can see though how from what I wrote it might have the meaning you thought it did. I think you’re right on. I want my wife to be a whole and full person. I want her to live out her dreams and become who she feels is her best self.
M
@micah: I have no idea how you do it, but somehow, even when trying to say you believe in equality, you manage to come off as extremely condescending.
“I want my wife to be a whole and full person. I want her to live out her dreams and become who she feels is her best self.” This is the same sort of thing I expect to hear from a parent talking about their child…you know, before that child even goes to high school/college or becomes an adult. When you use it to refer to someone you would marry, it sounds like you want to marry someone and then make them “an equal, not a trophy wife.” Like you’re raising her to be the person she will become, rather than marrying someone who is a unique and fully-grown adult, and then growing and changing together.
And as for your statements about “leading”…why is it somehow a guy’s responsibility to set up the date such that ” it doesnt make sense for a strong physical component to enter”? First off, it’s both perple’s responsibility to decide how the date will progress. And secondly…what is wrong with a strong physical component, so long as it doesn’t offend or upset anyone? Getting to know someone can happen in a variety of ways, depending on the people involved…and you don’t even know what each of these people was actually looking for in terms of how the relationship should work.
You seem very caught up in rules…this is how a guy should behave, this is how a first date should work, this is how a relationship should commence. It’s good that you have a strong sense of how you want your life to work. And I’ll be honest, I’m no relationship/dating expert. But it’s all part of real life…and no matter where you look, real life doesn’t always follow any set of rules. “Should” is great for setting guidelines and trying to manage the world around you, but people don’t always do what they “should.” In this story, neither Dennis nor Monica did what they “should” do on a first date. But that’s how real life works. You can’t just keep throwing rules at it…you just have to set boundaries of what is always unacceptable (like murder, or somehow violating another’s rights), and work from there.
@Vivster
At first I thought I was just an okay writer, but now I starting to believe Im the worlds worst writer.
Im not getting my point across clearly as I agree with much of what you wrote. Im sure my high school english teacher is rolling in her grave right now.
Well, back to my day job.
M
Well, we all had to start somewhere. Proofreading, spellcheck, and some apostrophes would be a good start….
Examining one’s own writing ability and knowing when to throw in the towel is another excellent starting point…
FFG
i have to agree with micah. i think he is talking about standards not rules.
@dennis hong: i have no doubt you have a lot of dating experience. you come across as a really nice guy.
@”qwerty”:
Welcome back, Micah. Here’s another free tip for you: Next time you post under a pseudonym, at least try doing it from a different computer. You have your own blog, so I’m surprised you don’t realize that blog administrators can see IP addresses. Oops! Nice try, though.
In any case… thank you. That was much less antagonistic than your previous posts.
@dennis hong: uhhhhh I hope you are not in IT.
“Hey, you know what would be cool? Posting under another user name and agreeing with myself! That would be the w1nnz0rz! Ooo! And I’ll keep my simplistic sentence structure but just not capitalize anything- that will throw them off my trail! @ll D3nn1s’ b@s3 @r3 b3l0ng to m3!!1!”
Yeah, people that can properly use the word congruent but can’t spell *isn’t* correctly are a little off-putting to me.
@Kat, Dong, FFG, and Viv… I love you guys… you just helped me kill half an afternoon. That I really probably should have killed writing, not reading, but I promise I’ll get to that this weekend.
P.S.: I hate it when I’m not logged into WordPress and my picture doesn’t show up. I like my picture.
Also, @FFG: Please don’t ever type in symbols again. I love you too much to let you cause yourself that much pain.
No worries, Res. I’m hoping to hit 95,000 page views today, and when you visit without logging in, you’re just helping our cause.
Hi Dennis,
I happened upon your blog by chance this evening whilst randomly surfing, I found your story an interesting one since I have been on the dating scene for 3 years following a break-up from 9 year long relationship.
I’m probably classed in the online community as a “lurker”, I read but don’t often write unless I feel quite passionately about something, if it is ok with you i’d like to offer my view (without being judged too much for having a personal opinion, I hope you will at least take my views on dating into consideration, and please forgive the grammatical errors, it is quite late).
Firstly a little about me: I’m 29 & female from the UK, I LOATHE (note the emphasis by the use of caps) chauvanistic men, they infuriate me; I am an equal to any other person on this planet regardless of age, race, sex, intelligence, looks etc etc I don’t think I need to elaborate any more on that, you get the picture.
OK… i’ll get to the point, through personal experience I have found there actually ARE “rules” to the dating “game”, I never thought in a million years I would think this way but i’ve learned some harsh lessons and am still learning as I continue to find someone I am completely happy to be with as my equal partner (or “other half”).
The foundations of dating: We date in the hope of finding someone compatible with our personalities, thoughts, dreams, aspirations, interests etc. I do not believe in being with someone for the sake of it; out of lonliness or money for example: it has to be for love otherwise ultimately it will not work out (ok there may be a statistical number of relationships that do work out but could we assume that number is quite low?)
I think this is a pretty standard expectation for most people – right????
Now, I can see by the responses to Micah’s points that the majority think that we all date and meet new people hoping to ignite something and hoping it will work out…but there is a certain “formula” or “structure” that works best in the early stages of getting to know one another, if we know that a strong relationship is founded on trust, then we know that sex on the first date is a definite no-no.
I believe that subconsciously, both genetically and instinctively there is a certain method that works well in “successful” dating that leads to a long lasting, loving and fulfilling relationships.
Basically it is that the man persues the woman if it is to work out as a long term relationship, my view is that women and men are different, we think differently; whether we like it or not, i believe that instinctively men are hunters and are excited about the prospect of having to chase a lady they would like to have as their partner.
It sounds to me as though Monica really liked you, she was attracted to you but she fluffed the date: She put her arm around you and initiated going back to yours first, perhaps she was testing you to see your reaction??? either way I think she realised that was the wrong thing to do when she got into your car and the date fell apart. You should have just kissed, thanked eachother for a nice evening and gone home, with her wondering if you’ll ask her out again and you wondering how great the next date will be.
Monica, bless her, hasn’t learned her lesson yet regardless of the same things that happeneing to her on dates.
Us ladies probably think about sex as much as you guys do, I purposely do not shave my legs and wear my comfy underwear on a first date to make SURE i never sleep with a guy.
You were physically attracted to eachother – but I think Monica wanted more than sex, she wanted romance. Us ladies want to be chased, to feel special, YOU needed to call HER!!!!! thats just how it is, its taken me 3 years to understand that this is how it is, if you were truly interested you’d have pinned her down for a 2nd date, by not doing so you made it clear you weren’t interested. A year down the line and you are still thinking about this lady, my advice – track her down and ask her out! She’ll love it! and do not sleep on the first date if you REALLY like someone, it messes up your chances through awkward feelings.
Hope this makes sense, wish you the best whatever you decide to do!
Feel free to challenge or question my opinions, all i ask is that you take my view point into consideration before replying ;o)
Thanks
J
Hi J,
Thanks for the thoughtful comments. Of course it’s okay for you to put in your two cents.
For what it’s worth, Micah got attacked mostly because of the antagonistic way he came on here.
In any case, I understand the idea of “rules.” I just don’t necessarily agree with them. I prefer to see them more as “guidelines,” rather than hard and fast “rules.”
In my opinion, laying down rules is just a lazy way of approaching not just dating, but life in general. Life requires introspection. We have to reflect on our experiences and learn from them. We have to think deeply about why we act a certain why and why certain things happen to us. And we have to work hard if we really want to improve ourselves. We don’t learn by setting simple rules.
Here’s an analogy that comes to mind: I have a drinking problem, so I set a rule that I will never have more than two drinks when I’m driving. Okay, that may prevent me from driving drunk. But does it really address the underlying issues with addiction that I may have? In my opinion, no.
Similarly, let’s say I have a problem maintaining relationships. So, I set a rule that I will only kiss on the first date. Well, is that simple rule actually going to address why my relationships always seem to fall apart after two weeks? In my opinion, no.
To me, rules are only band-aid solutions.
Again, I’m not saying that rules are always a bad thing. Sometimes, all we really need is a band-aid. At the same time, I believe that life is too complicated to adhere to pre-established rules.
Here, maybe this will clarify my position a bit (in case this diatribe hasn’t):
Six (Billion) Simple Rules Guaranteed To Help You Find The “One”!
dennis! You are such a nice guy that you still wanted to see her again even after the sobbing on the first date!!! that is so funny! and by the way, don’t question what you did, that reaction is not normal!!!
Nice… desperate….
The two could be interchangeable.
wow the fcuking asian got some white ass . go get hit by a buss denis , ride the camel back to asia